Well, all this is interesting to me, anyway, and that's what matters here. The Internet is a terrible thing for someone like me, who finds almost everything interesting.
Sunday, April 17, 2011
Nothing more to talk about
This is a great video, but I'm not sure I agree with it.
Oh, I agree with the points she makes, absolutely. But when it comes to family, "nothing more to talk about" sounds rather... final.
And it's just not true, at least in most families. OK, I've never had this experience, with parents who just can't let it alone, parents who just can't accept that their child thinks differently than they do. But can't you find other things to talk about, besides religion?
If your parents will not respect your religious (or political) views, don't discuss religion (or politics) with them. Maybe that will be hard sometimes. Maybe, in some families, it can be impossible. If that's the case, I'm really sorry to hear it. But... I still can't advise shutting them out of your life completely.
There are many religious and political views I don't respect. But I still might respect the person who holds them. (I certainly respect any person's right to hold them.) I might even love the person who holds them.
Sometimes, in extreme circumstances, people must cut their family ties. I know that. But the vast majority of us don't face such extreme circumstances. So your family is annoying. Big deal. They're still family.
You don't have to spend a lot of time with people who make you crazy (and who can make you crazier than family?). But "nothing more to talk about"? That's rarely - very rarely - the case.
My suggestion is to keep to neutral topics, as much as possible. If they won't, even when you keep changing the subject, then keep the talk short. But don't stop talking entirely. You may disagree on virtually everything, but there are still things to talk about. Heck, comment on the weather. That's usually pretty safe.
I feel sorry for people who face this situation. I guess that's why this video gets to me. I won't pretend to have all the answers, but I don't like the idea of giving up on family unless there's really no other way. In most cases - not all, I know - that's just not true.
When my Grandma went senile there was absolutely nothing to talk about but maybe the weather and sometimes I felt like it was torture going to see her. But, she's been gone for a couple of years and I still think about her. I think about the way she was in her prime and I also wish I could see her even the way she was at the end.
But rather than talk about family which I think most people agree is important, let's talk about the actual content of the video.
I'd like to think that Science and religion aren't mutually exclusive. Though I realize they are to a lot of people both atheists and religious.
Two, a lot of her arguments were about stuff that I think most Christian's understand as parables. Adam and Eve weren't literally the first humans. It's a story used in order to teach certain lessons.
I didn't really understand her point about why a church wouldn't need insurance. Why wouldn't it? Seems like a good thing to have.
Other than that I did like a lot of her points. She mentioned a lot of the classic moral arguments. Why do bad things happen to good people? Why would bad people be forgiven? And why does so much of the bible seem to make no sense? None of these are easy questions.
People have been trying to answer these questions for generations.
I guess she's really frustrated that her arguments with her family have been going in circles and if they really don't respect her opinions than I understand being forced to just sort of give up instead of continuing to bang your head against the wall. But she should remember that it's hard to get a new perspective if everyone you talk to agrees with you.
John, science and religion aren't mutually exclusive in the sense that one person can encompass both. But in that sense, you could also say that Catholicism and pedophilia aren't mutually exclusive, or marriage and adultery.
In a deeper sense, science and religion are in exact opposition, since faith is a vice in science but a virtue in religion. If you're both religious and scientific, you must decide which worldview you use for each specific issue, since the two worldviews are mutually incompatible.
On your second point, some Christians - not all - see these things as parables because science has shown that it's ridiculous to believe them literally. Christians always did believe them literally, of course, before our increasing knowledge forced them to retreat.
So now they're "parables" to many believers (again, not all). But this is only because they had to retreat to a fallback position. Since they weren't willing to abandon their faith entirely, they only retreated the absolute minimum. This has been a steady process, a step-by-step retreat, with believers stubbornly hanging on as long as they can, for centuries now.
The point about insurance, I suppose, is that, if God really supports what churches are doing, if it really does matter to him, why would he let them burn down? In particular, why would he let them suffer from "acts of God" - tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes?
As Lemuel K. Washburn said, "It rains on the just and the unjust, but rarely just enough on either."
Finally, you're right that believers have been trying to answer those moral questions for generations. But you're wrong that they're not easy questions. They are easy questions. Believers just don't want to accept the answer.
After all, there's no problem about any of those if you just accept that there is no God, that Christianity is just a superstition, that the Bible is a collection of tall tales and ancient tribal stories - just like what Christians think about every other religion.
Now, I know you think otherwise, John, and that's entirely your own business. (This is just one more thing we can agree to disagree about.) I'm just saying that those questions aren't difficult at all for us atheists. They're only difficult for believers because, if you really do believe in an omniscient, omnipotent, and benevolent deity, those things don't make sense.
PS. Thankfully, my grandparents - and my father - stayed mentally alert right to the end, and then died relatively quickly. (I really wish I could see them again, but...)
But I've known people whose loved ones lived for years with Alzheimer's, healthy in all but mind. That's got to be really, really tough. Torture? Yes, I can imagine what torture that must be.
I think as you say we just disagree on major points, which is fine.
I think science and religion will become more integrated. Just like I can believe in cutting excess government spending and also be a Democrat. Just think of it like a buffet: I take the best parts of all ideas or philosophies.
As far as your second point, I don't think you are giving our ancestors enough credit. Jefferson tore half his bible apart. You think he was the only one "using his head" and thinking about the bible analytically. My gut tells me, he wasn't the only one.
Finally, I understand your point about "these aren't hard questions for Atheists," but don't try to pretend like Atheists have unlocked all of life's mysteries. No one knows what happens after we die. No one knows if we are alone in the universe. We just saw that article about Dark matter possibly being tied to other universe's influencing our own. What a head trip!
The world of science is wonderful, but it doesn't have all the answers either.
Hmm,... John, I think you're the one who isn't giving Jefferson enough credit. He took all the supernatural stuff out of his Bible, leaving just the non-religious morality tales.
That's hardly the same thing as just considering some Bible stories to be parables. Jefferson wasn't a Christian at all. It's like thinking that Harry Potter teaches children about friendship and courage, without believing that the magic is actually real.
When it comes to the Bible, Christians think that the magic is real. Jefferson didn't. Of course, Jefferson would have been burned alive for heresy just a few centuries previously. But either way, you can't use him as an example of an analytical Christian. He was much closer to my views than yours.
Finally, note that science knows it doesn't have all the answers. Science admits that. No, science rejoices in it, since there'd be no more need for science if they did know everything.
But science doesn't just choose what it wants to believe, without any evidence backing it up. Science is willing to say, "I don't know."
Sure, scientists constantly develop hypotheses that seem to fit the available evidence. Dark matter is just one of them. But every scientist knows that's just one possibility. The science is far from settled when it comes to cutting edge stuff like that.
What they don't say is, "I don't know, so therefore a god must have done it." They don't even say, "I can't think of any other explanations, therefore what else could it be?" In science, you need evidence backing up your beliefs.
Scientists are far from perfect. And since scientists are just people, too, they have all the flaws the rest of us have. Any individual scientist might be a complete loon. But what any one scientist says really doesn't matter at all. It's the scientific consensus that advances all the time, as new evidence is found and new ideas are put forth.
Of course, let's not confuse "atheist" with "scientist." They're not necessarily the same thing. When I said these aren't hard questions for atheists, I was referring to your comment about "classic moral arguments."
Atheists know why bad things sometimes happen to good people. After all, why wouldn't they? And we certainly know why so much of the Bible doesn't make sense. You said that these aren't easy questions, but actually, they are.
I'm a skeptic. I think it makes sense to have reasons for what I believe, so I apportion my belief to the evidence. You're welcome to disagree. Please, tell me I'm wrong. I probably don't agree with anyone about everything. Why should disagreement be a problem? Check the Pages section below for series posts and links to book reviews and game posts, as well as contact info. Unfortunately, I rarely blog at all, anymore. So don't expect new posts. - Bill
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It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong - Richard Feynman
The general root of superstition is that men observe when things hit, and not when they miss, and commit to memory the one, and pass over the other. - Sir Francis Bacon
When a whole nation is roaring Patriotism at the top of its voice, I am fain to explore the cleanness of its hands and purity of its heart. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
Speculation is perfectly all right, but if you stay there you've only founded a superstition. If you test it, you've started a science. - Hal Clement
No matter how many times a theory meets its tests successfully, there can be no certainty that it will not be overthrown by the next observation. This, then, is a cornerstone of modern natural philosophy. It makes no claim of attaining ultimate truth. In fact, the phrase "ultimate truth" becomes meaningless, because there is no way in which enough observations can be made to make truth certain and, therefore, "ultimate". - Isaac Asimov
The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion. - Treaty of Tripoli, passed unanimously by the U.S. Senate and signed by President John Adams (1797)
I don't doubt the sincerity of dowsers, but even after we've demonstrated that they can't produce results that are any better than chance they'll still go away believing in their abilities... It is like the mother whose son is caught shoplifting on tape. She wonders why someone would want to frame her child by producing a fake video. - James Randi
During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. The Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church ... imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood. Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry. - Mark Twain
Aristotle maintained that women have fewer teeth than men; although he was twice married, it never occurred to him to verify this statement by examining his wives' mouths. - Bertrand Russell
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. - Friedrich Nietzsche
I have been thinking that I would make a proposition to my Republican friends... that if they will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them. - Adlai E. Stevenson, Jr.
This is not about proof. Science does not use proof. We favor evidence, and the work consists largely of the slow accumulation of evidence in support of ideas, not magically potent proofs that establish an idea as unassailable. - PZ Myers
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The formula was very simple: build this really flexible, really open economy, tolerate creative destruction so dead capital is quickly redeployed to better ideas and companies, pour into it the most diverse, smart and energetic immigrants from every corner of the world and then stir and repeat, stir and repeat, stir and repeat, stir and repeat. - Shekhar Gupta
We are prodding, challenging, seeking contradictions or small, persistent residual errors, proposing alternative explanations, encouraging heresy. We give our highest rewards to those who convincingly disprove established beliefs. - Carl Sagan
We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins
120 million of us place the big bang 2,500 years after the Babylonians and Sumerians learned to brew beer. - Sam Harris
To kill a man is not to defend a doctrine, but to kill a man. - Michael Servetus, burned at the stake in 1553
Democracy is not about majority rule; it is about minority rights. If there is no culture of not simply tolerating minorities, but actually treating them with equal rights, real democracy can't take root. - Thomas L. Friedman
We cannot absolutely prove that those are in error who tell us that society has reached a turning point, that we have seen our best days. But so said all who came before us and with just as much apparent reason. - Thomas Macauley, 1830
It may be true that the law cannot make a man love me, but it can stop him from lynching me, and I think that's pretty important. - Martin Luther King, Jr.
We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men. - Edward R. Murrow
The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without evidence. Science is simply common sense at its best - that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic. - Thomas Huxley
There is no absurdity so obvious that it cannot be firmly planted in the human head if you only begin to impose it before the age of five, by constantly repeating it with an air of great solemnity. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. ... Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society. - President Thomas Jefferson
To be elected in America, no matter from what party, the candidates have no choice but to year after year pledge to lower taxes further and further. We have become the nation of Ken and Barbie, looking good but very poor at the math. - Rack Jite
Invisible Pink Unicorns are beings of great spiritual power. We know this because they are capable of being invisible and pink at the same time. Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorns is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that they are pink; we logically know that they are invisible because we can't see them. - Steve Eley
We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; we know now that it is bad economics. - President Franklin D. Roosevelt
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4 comments:
When my Grandma went senile there was absolutely nothing to talk about but maybe the weather and sometimes I felt like it was torture going to see her. But, she's been gone for a couple of years and I still think about her. I think about the way she was in her prime and I also wish I could see her even the way she was at the end.
But rather than talk about family which I think most people agree is important, let's talk about the actual content of the video.
I'd like to think that Science and religion aren't mutually exclusive. Though I realize they are to a lot of people both atheists and religious.
Two, a lot of her arguments were about stuff that I think most Christian's understand as parables. Adam and Eve weren't literally the first humans. It's a story used in order to teach certain lessons.
I didn't really understand her point about why a church wouldn't need insurance. Why wouldn't it? Seems like a good thing to have.
Other than that I did like a lot of her points. She mentioned a lot of the classic moral arguments. Why do bad things happen to good people? Why would bad people be forgiven? And why does so much of the bible seem to make no sense? None of these are easy questions.
People have been trying to answer these questions for generations.
I guess she's really frustrated that her arguments with her family have been going in circles and if they really don't respect her opinions than I understand being forced to just sort of give up instead of continuing to bang your head against the wall. But she should remember that it's hard to get a new perspective if everyone you talk to agrees with you.
John, science and religion aren't mutually exclusive in the sense that one person can encompass both. But in that sense, you could also say that Catholicism and pedophilia aren't mutually exclusive, or marriage and adultery.
In a deeper sense, science and religion are in exact opposition, since faith is a vice in science but a virtue in religion. If you're both religious and scientific, you must decide which worldview you use for each specific issue, since the two worldviews are mutually incompatible.
On your second point, some Christians - not all - see these things as parables because science has shown that it's ridiculous to believe them literally. Christians always did believe them literally, of course, before our increasing knowledge forced them to retreat.
So now they're "parables" to many believers (again, not all). But this is only because they had to retreat to a fallback position. Since they weren't willing to abandon their faith entirely, they only retreated the absolute minimum. This has been a steady process, a step-by-step retreat, with believers stubbornly hanging on as long as they can, for centuries now.
The point about insurance, I suppose, is that, if God really supports what churches are doing, if it really does matter to him, why would he let them burn down? In particular, why would he let them suffer from "acts of God" - tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes?
As Lemuel K. Washburn said, "It rains on the just and the unjust, but rarely just enough on either."
Finally, you're right that believers have been trying to answer those moral questions for generations. But you're wrong that they're not easy questions. They are easy questions. Believers just don't want to accept the answer.
After all, there's no problem about any of those if you just accept that there is no God, that Christianity is just a superstition, that the Bible is a collection of tall tales and ancient tribal stories - just like what Christians think about every other religion.
Now, I know you think otherwise, John, and that's entirely your own business. (This is just one more thing we can agree to disagree about.) I'm just saying that those questions aren't difficult at all for us atheists. They're only difficult for believers because, if you really do believe in an omniscient, omnipotent, and benevolent deity, those things don't make sense.
PS. Thankfully, my grandparents - and my father - stayed mentally alert right to the end, and then died relatively quickly. (I really wish I could see them again, but...)
But I've known people whose loved ones lived for years with Alzheimer's, healthy in all but mind. That's got to be really, really tough. Torture? Yes, I can imagine what torture that must be.
I think as you say we just disagree on major points, which is fine.
I think science and religion will become more integrated. Just like I can believe in cutting excess government spending and also be a Democrat. Just think of it like a buffet: I take the best parts of all ideas or philosophies.
As far as your second point, I don't think you are giving our ancestors enough credit. Jefferson tore half his bible apart. You think he was the only one "using his head" and thinking about the bible analytically. My gut tells me, he wasn't the only one.
Finally, I understand your point about "these aren't hard questions for Atheists," but don't try to pretend like Atheists have unlocked all of life's mysteries. No one knows what happens after we die. No one knows if we are alone in the universe. We just saw that article about Dark matter possibly being tied to other universe's influencing our own. What a head trip!
The world of science is wonderful, but it doesn't have all the answers either.
Hmm,... John, I think you're the one who isn't giving Jefferson enough credit. He took all the supernatural stuff out of his Bible, leaving just the non-religious morality tales.
That's hardly the same thing as just considering some Bible stories to be parables. Jefferson wasn't a Christian at all. It's like thinking that Harry Potter teaches children about friendship and courage, without believing that the magic is actually real.
When it comes to the Bible, Christians think that the magic is real. Jefferson didn't. Of course, Jefferson would have been burned alive for heresy just a few centuries previously. But either way, you can't use him as an example of an analytical Christian. He was much closer to my views than yours.
Finally, note that science knows it doesn't have all the answers. Science admits that. No, science rejoices in it, since there'd be no more need for science if they did know everything.
But science doesn't just choose what it wants to believe, without any evidence backing it up. Science is willing to say, "I don't know."
Sure, scientists constantly develop hypotheses that seem to fit the available evidence. Dark matter is just one of them. But every scientist knows that's just one possibility. The science is far from settled when it comes to cutting edge stuff like that.
What they don't say is, "I don't know, so therefore a god must have done it." They don't even say, "I can't think of any other explanations, therefore what else could it be?" In science, you need evidence backing up your beliefs.
Scientists are far from perfect. And since scientists are just people, too, they have all the flaws the rest of us have. Any individual scientist might be a complete loon. But what any one scientist says really doesn't matter at all. It's the scientific consensus that advances all the time, as new evidence is found and new ideas are put forth.
Of course, let's not confuse "atheist" with "scientist." They're not necessarily the same thing. When I said these aren't hard questions for atheists, I was referring to your comment about "classic moral arguments."
Atheists know why bad things sometimes happen to good people. After all, why wouldn't they? And we certainly know why so much of the Bible doesn't make sense. You said that these aren't easy questions, but actually, they are.
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