Well, all this is interesting to me, anyway, and that's what matters here. The Internet is a terrible thing for someone like me, who finds almost everything interesting.
Thursday, April 6, 2017
Is the New Testament reliable?
Bart Ehrman gets pretty worked up here, but I understand it. Keep in mind that Ehrman does believe in a historical Jesus. That's not universal among scholars, although it's the majority position.
Who or what that Jesus was,... well, there's certainly no agreement about that, even among the people who think he actually existed.
And keep in mind that Ehrman was an evangelical Christian who became an expert in the New Testament for his faith. He lost that faith when he discovered too much about his own holy book, but he certainly didn't want to lose it. Just the reverse, in fact.
Finally, note that he talks about "scribal errors" in the Bible. But many of the most important of these weren't errors at all. They were deliberate changes.
For example: "Let the one who is without sin be the first to cast a stone at her." That entire story was added later. It can hardly be an "error."
And the entire ending of the Gospel of Mark - the first gospel to be written - was added later, apparently because the original ending seemed appropriate only for fiction. (The women who supposedly witnessed the resurrection never told anyone about it, because they were afraid. The end.)
Ehrman gives other examples, including the justification for the whole idea of the Trinity. That's certainly not a minor issue, but it's clearly not an accidental "error," either. It was added to the original text deliberately, by some unknown person, for his own reasons.
No, I haven't, Becky. I don't think I've read any atheist books (books by atheists specifically about religion, I mean). Would you recommend it?
I've been an atheist as long as I can remember, so books like that haven't seemed to offer me anything I didn't already know. (I do, however, watch debates and such. And I'm a big fan of the Atheist Experience TV show, especially when Matt Dillahunty is hosting it.)
PS. Blogger decided that your comments were spam, for some weird reason. Sorry about that. I get all comments emailed to me, though, and it's easy enough to fix that when I discover it.
I read it some years ago, and it made the cut when I downsized my "library", but I'm due to reread it, and will let you know if I recommend it. It's actually a collection of his speeches & articles. I just recall, generally, that I found his logic very good. I haven't read any other atheistic writings either. I started out Methodist, but the more I learned, ended up atheist for some years now. In fact I've been considering looking into Humanism more - any thoughts on that? Becky
Blogger's spam filter really doesn't like you, Becky. :)
Anyway, I do like what I've read of Bertram Russell, but that's only been bits and pieces. So yes, please let me know what you think when you reread it.
Re. secular humanism, I support it, in general, but I don't usually call myself a humanist.
Atheism is basically negative, not positive. It's disbelief, rather than a belief. I'm an atheist because I'm a skeptic, and I think that implies certain things. But it's not a belief system.
"Atheism Plus" is one of the ways atheists have tried to extend it in a positive direction, but secular humanism is more popular. Secular humanism is a positive belief system, not just the rejection of an unsupported claim. That can certainly be valuable.
However, I've known 'secular humanists' who equate it with Communism - literally, from self-described Communists who say that's "secular humanism" - and others who equate it with libertarianism (in other words, nearly the exact opposite philosophy).
Neither of those are mainstream opinions of secular humanism, but it does seem to be rather ill-defined. And, inevitably, I'm never going to agree with every political solution from anyone. So I just don't use the "secular humanist" label myself, even though I recognize that it probably applies to me in most cases.
"Atheist" is a label that's a lot narrower. So is "skeptic" and "feminist" (although both of those terms are sometimes used in ways I vehemently disagree with). I'm a Democrat because I belong to a particular political party, and everyone knows - or should know - that I don't necessarily agree with everything in a party platform.
I don't know. Labels are rather personal things. I've met atheists who really shy away from the "atheist" label. They're atheists by almost any definition, but they don't want to label themselves that way. Well, that's their business. I certainly don't reject the "secular humanist" label, but I don't normally use it to describe myself, either.
Sure, that makes sense. I'm not big on labels but you kinda gotta start somewhere. I particularly agree that the definition of feminist, which seemed so focused in the '70s, has become so broad as to be almost meaningless.
I thought that parts of church were a good thing when I was growing up - a group of people "doing good" in the community, whose values we all shared & agreed with. I have missed that aspect. When I became an atheist I wondered, "Why don't humans just take responsibility?", and discovered, as with all things now that we're all connected by the internet, it has already been thought of & put in place, I.E., Humanism. But I never went further, investigating it more, possibly joining a group. It would be interesting to compare different groups with the same identity (Humanists), just as churches of the same denomination differ.
Yes, so many gas stations, so little time (non-robot proving). LOL
"It would be interesting to compare different groups with the same identity (Humanists), just as churches of the same denomination differ."
That's a very good point, Becky, though it might even be like the different sects of Christianity. Supposedly, they're all about the same thing, and most of them even use the same book, but they differ immensely.
However, I think I misunderstood your comment earlier. At least, I got to talking about humanism as a label, rather than about finding a compatible group. Those are very different things, and I do have a couple of thoughts about the latter.
First, there are many local atheist groups who "do good" in the community and otherwise take atheism in a positive direction. The Atheist Community of Austin, for example (they sponsor the Atheist Experience TV show, among other things) promotes "positive atheist culture and the separation of church and state." They seem to be quite active in their local area doing volunteer work.
There are many local groups of atheists (often, you can find one at Meetup) which offer social activities and various types of active involvement in the community. Even though "atheist" might be a very narrow label, that doesn't mean that atheists themselves are narrow (and certainly not that we aren't human beings who need a social outlet).
And there are different local groups of humanists, too. A quick Google search shows me local groups of the American Humanist Association and the Council for Secular Humanism, for example. I don't know how much or in what ways they vary.
But unless you live in a major metropolitan area, you might not find a lot of different options. So, if you're looking for a local group, your main criteria might simply be that there is a local group. (Although, if there isn't, you might consider starting one. Meetup makes it pretty easy, I think.)
I'm not that social these days. I belong to the Lincoln Atheists, which is my local Meetup group, but I've never even met any of the other members, since I don't attend their meetings and events.
But there are a lot of groups around, both local and national organizations. I'm afraid I ignored all that when I was talking about labels earlier. Well, as I said, I'm not especially social these days. :)
Those are some great pointers, Bill, thanks! I AM in a large metro area. Just need to put exploring this at the top of a list... of lists, LOL. TTYL Becky
Hi Bill, I finally got around to re-reading Why I am Not a Christian, by Bertrand Russell. At first I was finding no new thoughts, but as I went on I realized he was quite good at saying things concisely, and pointing out attitudes and speech we take for granted (and shouldn't). In fact I found many sentences to be complete thoughts worthy of contemplation on their own. Although some of the science used in inevitable comparisons to beliefs is now dated, at nearly 100 years old, I still recommend it. Becky
I'm a skeptic. I think it makes sense to have reasons for what I believe, so I apportion my belief to the evidence. You're welcome to disagree. Please, tell me I'm wrong. I probably don't agree with anyone about everything. Why should disagreement be a problem? Check the Pages section below for series posts and links to book reviews and game posts, as well as contact info. Unfortunately, I rarely blog at all, anymore. So don't expect new posts. - Bill
We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true. - Robert Wilensky
It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong - Richard Feynman
The general root of superstition is that men observe when things hit, and not when they miss, and commit to memory the one, and pass over the other. - Sir Francis Bacon
When a whole nation is roaring Patriotism at the top of its voice, I am fain to explore the cleanness of its hands and purity of its heart. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
Speculation is perfectly all right, but if you stay there you've only founded a superstition. If you test it, you've started a science. - Hal Clement
No matter how many times a theory meets its tests successfully, there can be no certainty that it will not be overthrown by the next observation. This, then, is a cornerstone of modern natural philosophy. It makes no claim of attaining ultimate truth. In fact, the phrase "ultimate truth" becomes meaningless, because there is no way in which enough observations can be made to make truth certain and, therefore, "ultimate". - Isaac Asimov
The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion. - Treaty of Tripoli, passed unanimously by the U.S. Senate and signed by President John Adams (1797)
I don't doubt the sincerity of dowsers, but even after we've demonstrated that they can't produce results that are any better than chance they'll still go away believing in their abilities... It is like the mother whose son is caught shoplifting on tape. She wonders why someone would want to frame her child by producing a fake video. - James Randi
During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. The Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church ... imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood. Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry. - Mark Twain
Aristotle maintained that women have fewer teeth than men; although he was twice married, it never occurred to him to verify this statement by examining his wives' mouths. - Bertrand Russell
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. - Friedrich Nietzsche
I have been thinking that I would make a proposition to my Republican friends... that if they will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them. - Adlai E. Stevenson, Jr.
This is not about proof. Science does not use proof. We favor evidence, and the work consists largely of the slow accumulation of evidence in support of ideas, not magically potent proofs that establish an idea as unassailable. - PZ Myers
No, people don't expect government to solve all their problems. But they sense, deep in their bones, that with just a slight change in priorities, we can make sure that every child in America has a decent shot at life, and that the doors of opportunity remain open to all. - President Barack Obama
The formula was very simple: build this really flexible, really open economy, tolerate creative destruction so dead capital is quickly redeployed to better ideas and companies, pour into it the most diverse, smart and energetic immigrants from every corner of the world and then stir and repeat, stir and repeat, stir and repeat, stir and repeat. - Shekhar Gupta
We are prodding, challenging, seeking contradictions or small, persistent residual errors, proposing alternative explanations, encouraging heresy. We give our highest rewards to those who convincingly disprove established beliefs. - Carl Sagan
We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins
120 million of us place the big bang 2,500 years after the Babylonians and Sumerians learned to brew beer. - Sam Harris
To kill a man is not to defend a doctrine, but to kill a man. - Michael Servetus, burned at the stake in 1553
Democracy is not about majority rule; it is about minority rights. If there is no culture of not simply tolerating minorities, but actually treating them with equal rights, real democracy can't take root. - Thomas L. Friedman
We cannot absolutely prove that those are in error who tell us that society has reached a turning point, that we have seen our best days. But so said all who came before us and with just as much apparent reason. - Thomas Macauley, 1830
It may be true that the law cannot make a man love me, but it can stop him from lynching me, and I think that's pretty important. - Martin Luther King, Jr.
We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men. - Edward R. Murrow
The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without evidence. Science is simply common sense at its best - that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic. - Thomas Huxley
There is no absurdity so obvious that it cannot be firmly planted in the human head if you only begin to impose it before the age of five, by constantly repeating it with an air of great solemnity. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. ... Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society. - President Thomas Jefferson
To be elected in America, no matter from what party, the candidates have no choice but to year after year pledge to lower taxes further and further. We have become the nation of Ken and Barbie, looking good but very poor at the math. - Rack Jite
Invisible Pink Unicorns are beings of great spiritual power. We know this because they are capable of being invisible and pink at the same time. Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorns is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that they are pink; we logically know that they are invisible because we can't see them. - Steve Eley
We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; we know now that it is bad economics. - President Franklin D. Roosevelt
I have been attacked by Rush Limbaugh on the air, an experience somewhat akin to being gummed by a newt. It doesn't actually hurt, but it leaves you with slimy stuff on your ankle. - Molly Ivins
In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican. - H. L. Mencken
Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts. - Winston Churchill
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11 comments:
Boy, Bart is worked up. He sounds like a Fire and Brimstone preacher.
Yeah, Jim. But I've never watched Bart Ehrman debate before. This might just be his usual mannerism.
I'm that way when I comment, too - not because I'm worked up, necessarily, but just because I'm only concentrating on getting my point across.
Bill, have you read Why I am Not a Christian, by Bertrand Russell?
No, I haven't, Becky. I don't think I've read any atheist books (books by atheists specifically about religion, I mean). Would you recommend it?
I've been an atheist as long as I can remember, so books like that haven't seemed to offer me anything I didn't already know. (I do, however, watch debates and such. And I'm a big fan of the Atheist Experience TV show, especially when Matt Dillahunty is hosting it.)
PS. Blogger decided that your comments were spam, for some weird reason. Sorry about that. I get all comments emailed to me, though, and it's easy enough to fix that when I discover it.
I read it some years ago, and it made the cut when I downsized my "library", but I'm due to reread it, and will let you know if I recommend it. It's actually a collection of his speeches & articles. I just recall, generally, that I found his logic very good. I haven't read any other atheistic writings either. I started out Methodist, but the more I learned, ended up atheist for some years now. In fact I've been considering looking into Humanism more - any thoughts on that? Becky
Blogger's spam filter really doesn't like you, Becky. :)
Anyway, I do like what I've read of Bertram Russell, but that's only been bits and pieces. So yes, please let me know what you think when you reread it.
Re. secular humanism, I support it, in general, but I don't usually call myself a humanist.
Atheism is basically negative, not positive. It's disbelief, rather than a belief. I'm an atheist because I'm a skeptic, and I think that implies certain things. But it's not a belief system.
"Atheism Plus" is one of the ways atheists have tried to extend it in a positive direction, but secular humanism is more popular. Secular humanism is a positive belief system, not just the rejection of an unsupported claim. That can certainly be valuable.
However, I've known 'secular humanists' who equate it with Communism - literally, from self-described Communists who say that's "secular humanism" - and others who equate it with libertarianism (in other words, nearly the exact opposite philosophy).
Neither of those are mainstream opinions of secular humanism, but it does seem to be rather ill-defined. And, inevitably, I'm never going to agree with every political solution from anyone. So I just don't use the "secular humanist" label myself, even though I recognize that it probably applies to me in most cases.
"Atheist" is a label that's a lot narrower. So is "skeptic" and "feminist" (although both of those terms are sometimes used in ways I vehemently disagree with). I'm a Democrat because I belong to a particular political party, and everyone knows - or should know - that I don't necessarily agree with everything in a party platform.
I don't know. Labels are rather personal things. I've met atheists who really shy away from the "atheist" label. They're atheists by almost any definition, but they don't want to label themselves that way. Well, that's their business. I certainly don't reject the "secular humanist" label, but I don't normally use it to describe myself, either.
Does that make any sense?
Sure, that makes sense. I'm not big on labels but you kinda gotta start somewhere. I particularly agree that the definition of feminist, which seemed so focused in the '70s, has become so broad as to be almost meaningless.
I thought that parts of church were a good thing when I was growing up - a group of people "doing good" in the community, whose values we all shared & agreed with. I have missed that aspect. When I became an atheist I wondered, "Why don't humans just take responsibility?", and discovered, as with all things now that we're all connected by the internet, it has already been thought of & put in place, I.E., Humanism. But I never went further, investigating it more, possibly joining a group. It would be interesting to compare different groups with the same identity (Humanists), just as churches of the same denomination differ.
Yes, so many gas stations, so little time (non-robot proving). LOL
"It would be interesting to compare different groups with the same identity (Humanists), just as churches of the same denomination differ."
That's a very good point, Becky, though it might even be like the different sects of Christianity. Supposedly, they're all about the same thing, and most of them even use the same book, but they differ immensely.
However, I think I misunderstood your comment earlier. At least, I got to talking about humanism as a label, rather than about finding a compatible group. Those are very different things, and I do have a couple of thoughts about the latter.
First, there are many local atheist groups who "do good" in the community and otherwise take atheism in a positive direction. The Atheist Community of Austin, for example (they sponsor the Atheist Experience TV show, among other things) promotes "positive atheist culture and the separation of church and state." They seem to be quite active in their local area doing volunteer work.
There are many local groups of atheists (often, you can find one at Meetup) which offer social activities and various types of active involvement in the community. Even though "atheist" might be a very narrow label, that doesn't mean that atheists themselves are narrow (and certainly not that we aren't human beings who need a social outlet).
And there are different local groups of humanists, too. A quick Google search shows me local groups of the American Humanist Association and the Council for Secular Humanism, for example. I don't know how much or in what ways they vary.
But unless you live in a major metropolitan area, you might not find a lot of different options. So, if you're looking for a local group, your main criteria might simply be that there is a local group. (Although, if there isn't, you might consider starting one. Meetup makes it pretty easy, I think.)
I'm not that social these days. I belong to the Lincoln Atheists, which is my local Meetup group, but I've never even met any of the other members, since I don't attend their meetings and events.
But there are a lot of groups around, both local and national organizations. I'm afraid I ignored all that when I was talking about labels earlier. Well, as I said, I'm not especially social these days. :)
Good luck!
Those are some great pointers, Bill, thanks! I AM in a large metro area. Just need to put exploring this at the top of a list... of lists, LOL. TTYL Becky
Hi Bill, I finally got around to re-reading Why I am Not a Christian, by Bertrand Russell. At first I was finding no new thoughts, but as I went on I realized he was quite good at saying things concisely, and pointing out attitudes and speech we take for granted (and shouldn't). In fact I found many sentences to be complete thoughts worthy of contemplation on their own. Although some of the science used in inevitable comparisons to beliefs is now dated, at nearly 100 years old, I still recommend it. Becky
Thanks, Becky. I'll put it on my list, though... there's just never enough time for everything, is there? I don't know where the time goes! :)
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