My post a week ago, about that discussion thread at Pharyngula, brought this to mind. Commonly, we're supposed to just assume that religious leaders are the experts in ethics and morality. I'll hear that science can't tell us anything about those things. And believers will wonder out loud how - and why - we atheists can be ethical without a god telling us what to do (and enforcing the rules with threats of damnation).
You may not know any atheists (we look like everyone else and often have reason to be discreet), but we all know Christians. Are they all good people? One of the reasons I was skeptical as a child was that church-going didn't seem to improve people. Some of the devout were very nice; some were quite nasty. But there didn't seem to be a correlation between belief and behavior. (As an adult, I still haven't seen one.)
If clerics are such moral leaders, shouldn't people who get more instruction be clearly better than the rest of us? Shouldn't the clerics themselves be the best of all? A look at the recent pedophile scandal in the Catholic Church should tell you that's not necessarily the case.
Oh, but that's not your religion, huh? Well, that's the other problem. How do you pick the right religion, then? The vast majority of us pick it by... being born into it. In other words, your religious belief is simply an accident of birth. If you'd been born in another nation, and especially in some other time, your belief would be completely different,... but just as firm as it is now.
How could we even consider that clerics are the experts in ethics and morality? Have you ever read the Bible? It supports slavery, genocide, child-beating, the killing of "witches" and heretics, and all manner of vile behavior we've risen above these days. To be even slightly moral today, you must ignore or rationalize away a good part of your holy book (whatever it is).
In fact, the progress we've made in ethical behavior has generally come despite the fierce resistance of religion. To be sure, believers have normally been on both sides of every important issue. But churches in the South - the Bible Belt even then - owned slaves, and even sold babies to raise money for spreading the good word. Congregations fought hard against racial integration and women's suffrage. And religious groups today lead the fight against gay rights.
It's true that science doesn't focus on proper behavior. That's not its purpose. But that doesn't mean it can't tell us anything about ethics and morality, either. We can recognize that we evolved certain characteristics because we're social animals, because cooperation has always been essential to our survival. And we can see similar traits in other primates, too - for the same reason. This helps to put things in perspective, so we can understand why we think and feel as we do.
But generally, ethical behavior isn't that difficult to identify. Unless you're a psychopath, you can normally just feel what's right and what's wrong. You may do what's wrong anyway, but it's rarely because you can't tell the difference. (Actively trying to help other people might indeed be difficult, since you must weigh short-term and long-term effects, but that's less a case of right vs wrong than just... trying to decide between two rights.)
If you really want a specific guideline, the Golden Rule works well enough: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." However, this isn't specifically Christian, or even specifically religious. It's been a common philosophy worldwide and throughout our history, in one form or another. But ordinarily, it's only been applied to "us" and not "them," and pretty much the entire advance of ethical thinking has basically been to enlarge the pool of "us" and shrink the number of people considered "them."
Note that another ethical guideline, "turn the other cheek," is often praised, but rarely practiced. And that's for very good reason. Pacifism works sometimes, in specific, very limited situations, but it's a poor philosophy in general. We all know that. We'll all fight to defend ourselves and our families, whatever lip-service we pay to Jesus. In fact, if you won't support a common defense, you'll be a burden on others who do need to defend the community. So I'd argue that "turn the other cheek" is seldom ethical.
So, do we really need god-given guidelines in order to tell ethical from unethical behavior? Let's look at the Ten Commandments. (There are different versions, but they're all similar enough for our purposes. For convenience, I'll use this list, which is near the top in a Google search.)
The first four are just religious observances - prohibitions against other gods, against making representational art, against blasphemy, and against working on the Sabbath. These are similar to biblical prohibitions against eating shellfish or wearing clothing of mixed fibers. If you're not a Christian, they're hardly a matter of ethics. And even Christians normally pick and choose which to obey.
"Honor your father and your mother" might seem like a good rule, but most of us don't need a rule like that. We naturally love our parents, just like they naturally love us. And if your parent did not deserve your love - if your father beat you or raped you, for example - you shouldn't honor him. So as an ethical guideline, this is either completely unnecessary or erroneous, depending on the circumstances.
The next four are quite reasonable guidelines, as far as they go, being prohibitions against murder, adultery, theft, and perjury. But, again, they're hardly necessary. Religious or not, we all know that these things are wrong. This doesn't help with the difficult questions, like whether or not capital punishment is "murder." And it doesn't include other kinds of behavior that are equally wrong, like rape.
And the last commandment is not to covet what belongs to someone else. (Yeah, rape isn't important enough to be a commandment, but envy is. Go figure!) Is this really a valid ethical rule? Well, that might depend on your definition of "covet." You might admire your neighbor's wife, envy his house, and lust after his ass (or his ox), but none of that is wrong if it's not taken too far. In fact, it might even be beneficial, if it causes you to work harder to get a similar house (or wife) yourself.
So how can we atheists be ethical without a god telling us that murder is wrong? Well, you know that rape is wrong, and there's nothing in your Bible about that. You know that raising hybrid cattle isn't wrong, despite biblical prohibitions. And you know that it's not right to beat your kid with a stick, even though the Bible says it is. Ordinarily, this isn't rocket-science. And for really difficult ethical questions, your religion is no help anyway.
OK, so much for the how. How about the why? Why would atheists behave themselves without the ever-present threat of hellfire (or the promise of heaven)? Well, I'm not a sociopath, so I don't like to cause suffering to other people. I've felt pain myself, physical and emotional, and it's not fun. Why would I want to inflict pain on someone else? I'd feel terrible about that!
When I've done something wrong, I've felt ashamed of myself. If I've hurt someone else, I've felt like a heel. I don't like that feeling. I have empathy. I recognize that others are people just like me. I can imagine their pain. When I was a child, maybe I needed the threat and the promise of Santa Claus to behave well, I don't know. But I certainly don't as an adult.
If I couldn't feel those things, as a natural consequence of being a normal human being, I would hope that I could still think my way into knowing what was wrong and what was right. And if I could tell right from wrong, why would I want to do what was wrong? Well, some people do (and the vast majority of them - like people in general - are religious believers). I'm no expert on why that happens, but I do know that religious belief doesn't seem to prevent it.
Traditionally, the mafia was a big supporter of the Catholic Church. (I don't know if that's still the case or not.) They certainly weren't atheists. So, why didn't they believe they were going to Hell? Why did they continue murder and theft, biggies in the Ten Commandments? Their religious beliefs certainly didn't stop them, so why would you think that atheists couldn't be moral without religion?
We do have secular laws, and at least part of the justification for them is as a deterrent. If I really wanted to murder someone, the consequences under our legal system might indeed deter me. Frankly, they almost certainly would. So the threat of Hell, in addition to that, would be completely immaterial.
Also, I strongly suspect if I really wanted to murder someone, I could probably convince myself that it was approved by my god. The Bible, for example, contains all sorts of justification for murder. You just have to pick and choose which parts you want to obey. Certainly believers have had no problem killing people for centuries - witches, heretics, adulterers, abortion doctors, atheists, criminals, enemy soldiers,... the list goes on and on.
Atheists are at least as ethical as believers, and religious leaders are not experts in ethics or morality, despite their claims. And since there's no consensus in religion (unlike in science), even if they were, you'd have to first pick the right religion (and then, likely, the right denomination within it). I don't need any of that, and neither do you. It's rarely hard to tell right from wrong. And when you understand that you depend on a community of people, you'll understand why you should do the right thing.
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Note: The rest of this series is here.
Space Roundup : heading into 2025
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We haven't stopped moving ahead. Nor will we. And hence, with the aim of
ending a tumultuous year on a high note... *very* high... here's my roundup
of ...
1 day ago
2 comments:
~If you'd been born in another nation, and especially in some other time, your belief would be completely different,... but just as firm as it is now.
Don't you yourself disprove this one? You admit to being raised in a Methodist atmosphere, in a Christian town.. but you were skeptical even at an early age. So in your own existence, you offer an exception, or counterclaim to your claim.
~ To be even slightly moral today, you must ignore or rationalize away a good part of your holy book (whatever it is).
Now there is a good point. That would either suggest that
A: We have evolved the belief to suit the time frame. Could the shift from Old to New Testament reflect this idea?
B: That there is no such thing as a Christian in the modern day. I recall reading an essay.. I wish I could find it again.. by an want-to-be believer, that was looking for an actual Christian to learn from.. and being unable to find one. From which he suggested that the religion is a dead one, and that the name has been taken by non-believers profiteering in God's name. At the time I thought he was crazy...
~But generally, ethical behavior isn't that difficult to identify. Unless you're a psychopath, you can normally just feel what's right and what's wrong. You may do what's wrong anyway, but it's rarely because you can't tell the difference.
This strikes me as wrong. What constitutes as right and wrong? The Bible was almost clear on the subject, yet without a religious goal post, the waters get murky. Does culture dictate what is right and wrong? Does a humanitarian outlook? For lack of better example, I will use vigilantism. Let's say a Mexican crosses the border and kills an American citizen. The spouse of the citizen, kills the Mexican in return two weeks later. What was 'Right' or 'good' in the situation? The spouse could claim he was right, the family of the Mexican said it was up to their government, the US government could say it was their responsibility... etc And by logic, I can't fault any of them. Right and wrong gets murky without guidelines... which religion was more or less good at providing.
~The next four are quite reasonable guidelines, as far as they go, being prohibitions against murder, adultery, theft, and perjury. But, again, they're hardly necessary. Religious or not, we all know that these things are wrong.
So every single instance of ..murder we'll say.. is wrong. How does the above example apply? How does war factor in? What about executions? How about theft? Sure it would be bad for me to come take your TV in the middle of the night.. but what about espionage? Is stealing the secrets of another nation to protect your own 'wrong'?
Right and wrong is so very fluid.. (Please ignore the fact that assuming the rational commandments of the Bible are a blanket statement, raises a lot of questions for the rest of the Bible itself..)
~OK, so much for the how. How about the why? Why would atheists behave themselves without the ever-present threat of hellfire (or the promise of heaven)? Well, I'm not a sociopath, so I don't like to cause suffering to other people.
But there are people who do. And I forget who made the statement, but it tends to be true in my opinion. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely". Could it be argued, that the more perceived power a person has, the more they lose grip of right and wrong?
Granted, that would imply that God, who has absolute power would be...
Don't you yourself disprove this one?
Sure, if I'd meant it that way. I was speaking to a hypothetical believer reading this post, and even then, only as a broad generalization.
Obviously, there are converts, as well as us atheists. But overwhelmingly, worldwide, believers just believe in whatever god they were taught as a child. That's undeniable, isn't it?
That there is no such thing as a Christian in the modern day.
Well, I let Christians label themselves. But yes, the overwhelming majority of Christians today would have been burned at the stake as heretics centuries ago.
You don't believe in witches? You think that slavery is immoral? You don't kill people who work on the Sabbath, or homosexuals, or disobedient children, or heretics? You don't burn women alive (specifically, the daughters of priests) for prostitution?
You believe that the Earth revolves around the Sun (even in the 17th Century, Galileo nearly got tortured to death for that one), and that neither body is the center of the universe? Heck, most modern Christians don't even believe in the Genesis story, or in the Great Flood.
But since Christians can't even agree among themselves about who's a "real" Christian and who isn't, I'm certainly not going to worry about it.
What constitutes as right and wrong?
We decide that, of course. Christians, too. Is slavery wrong? Not according to the Bible. Is killing heretics, homosexuals, disobedient children, etc. wrong? Not according to the Bible. Are freedom of speech and freedom of religion right? Not according to the Bible.
I don't use the Bible to decide what's right or wrong, but neither do Christians. They decide first and then either ignore the Bible, rationalize away the contradictions, or make some other excuse for it.
But there are people who do.
Sure. That's why we have police, an army, a justice system, etc.
If Christianity were true, why would any of that be necessary? Jesus said to turn the other cheek. And death isn't the end for anyone, according to traditional Christianity, so why would you care about murderers?
If you're killed, you haven't lost anything, because you've still got eternity. If someone kills your kids, well, that would just guarantee that they'd go to Heaven.
And God has his plan, after all. God's justice is perfect, right? So why bother with a flawed human justice system, when God's plan has it covered?
It's only us atheists who need a justice system. Why would Christians bother? Why would Christians worry about death, or even suffering? It's all God's plan, and they've got an eternity of bliss to look forward to, right?
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