Well, all this is interesting to me, anyway, and that's what matters here. The Internet is a terrible thing for someone like me, who finds almost everything interesting.
Friday, February 17, 2012
Jesus, Republicans, and the Bible
The full episode of The Point is here. It's pretty interesting, but note that it's 41 minutes long.
The perspective is from liberal believers (not all are Christian; one of the panelists is a lesbian Rabbi), and you probably know how I feel about that. I'm quite happy to work with anyone on the issues, but I still think that faith-based thinking is invalid and that it actually enables the crazies.
After all, how can you criticize someone else for what they believe by faith when you think that faith is valid? Faith means that you can believe anything you want to believe (typically, whatever you were raised to believe). And it's only evidence-based thinkers who can really expect to come to a consensus.
One of the panelists actually says, "To connect to that spiritual world, you cannot enter it through the intellectual plane. You almost have to turn off your intellect to experience the spiritual plane."
Heh, heh. Now, if that doesn't raise alarms with you, I think you've already "turned off" your intellect!
Well, when it comes to Republicans, I think their biggest problem is just that, that they've "turned off" their intellect. They've become entirely faith-based, which means that it doesn't matter how crazy something is, they can still believe it.
My fundamental problem with liberal believers is not really what they believe, but how they believe. But so what? They have the right to believe whatever they wish, and I'll gladly work with them on issues where we agree. Heck, I'll gladly work with conservative believers, wherever we can find common ground.
But it won't keep me from advocating evidence-based thinking. Liberal believers are a lot easier to get along with than their conservative counterparts, but they've still got the wrong mechanism for determining the truth. When you're faith-based, there's just no way to separate the truth from wishful-thinking.
2 comments:
Anonymous
said...
Your definition of faith is one, and it is useful to support your argument. I prefer C.S. Lewis' from "mere Christianity."
"I am not asking anyone to accept Christianity if his best reasoning tells him that the weight of the evidence is against it. That is not the point at which Faith comes in. Faith, in the sense in which I am here using the word, is the art of holding on to things your reason has once accepted, in spite of your changing moods."
I would say that many evangelical christians are actually no longer Christian in their faith, they are caught up in emotion and excitement rather than faith. If they were faithful they would be more concerned with feeding and caring for the poor and creating peace in the world. They have lost their reason and are filled with greed and anger.
Well, Anonymous, C.S. Lewis was a great Christian apologist, but his definition of faith doesn't seem to be all that different from my own: belief without good evidence or despite the evidence.
When he says "holding on to things your reason has once accepted," he just means believing what you were taught as a child, doesn't he? But why would that be a good thing, when you've come to a better understanding of the world?
"Changing moods"? Is that how he'd describe giving up Santa Claus when you come to understand he doesn't actually exist?
Finally, "the weight of the evidence" is a much easier standard of proof than demonstrating the reality of your claims. Would he say the same thing about Islam, I wonder? Or Wicca? Still, if Christians actually have evidence, where is it?
After all, I'm just saying that it's a good thing to have evidence backing up your beliefs. Otherwise, it's far too easy to fool yourself, especially in those areas where you really, really want to be fooled.
Re. your last paragraph, whether someone is actually Christian or not, I generally take them at their word. They're Christian if they claim to be. There's certainly enough contradictions in the Bible to cover a wide variety of different beliefs.
Of course, right-wing evangelicals don't think that liberal Christians are really Christian, either. Well, I don't have a dog in that hunt, so I just accept whatever a person wants to label himself.
I'm a skeptic. I think it makes sense to have reasons for what I believe, so I apportion my belief to the evidence. You're welcome to disagree. Please, tell me I'm wrong. I probably don't agree with anyone about everything. Why should disagreement be a problem? Check the Pages section below for series posts and links to book reviews and game posts, as well as contact info. Unfortunately, I rarely blog at all, anymore. So don't expect new posts. - Bill
We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true. - Robert Wilensky
It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong - Richard Feynman
The general root of superstition is that men observe when things hit, and not when they miss, and commit to memory the one, and pass over the other. - Sir Francis Bacon
When a whole nation is roaring Patriotism at the top of its voice, I am fain to explore the cleanness of its hands and purity of its heart. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
Speculation is perfectly all right, but if you stay there you've only founded a superstition. If you test it, you've started a science. - Hal Clement
No matter how many times a theory meets its tests successfully, there can be no certainty that it will not be overthrown by the next observation. This, then, is a cornerstone of modern natural philosophy. It makes no claim of attaining ultimate truth. In fact, the phrase "ultimate truth" becomes meaningless, because there is no way in which enough observations can be made to make truth certain and, therefore, "ultimate". - Isaac Asimov
The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion. - Treaty of Tripoli, passed unanimously by the U.S. Senate and signed by President John Adams (1797)
I don't doubt the sincerity of dowsers, but even after we've demonstrated that they can't produce results that are any better than chance they'll still go away believing in their abilities... It is like the mother whose son is caught shoplifting on tape. She wonders why someone would want to frame her child by producing a fake video. - James Randi
During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. The Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church ... imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood. Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry. - Mark Twain
Aristotle maintained that women have fewer teeth than men; although he was twice married, it never occurred to him to verify this statement by examining his wives' mouths. - Bertrand Russell
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. - Friedrich Nietzsche
I have been thinking that I would make a proposition to my Republican friends... that if they will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them. - Adlai E. Stevenson, Jr.
This is not about proof. Science does not use proof. We favor evidence, and the work consists largely of the slow accumulation of evidence in support of ideas, not magically potent proofs that establish an idea as unassailable. - PZ Myers
No, people don't expect government to solve all their problems. But they sense, deep in their bones, that with just a slight change in priorities, we can make sure that every child in America has a decent shot at life, and that the doors of opportunity remain open to all. - President Barack Obama
The formula was very simple: build this really flexible, really open economy, tolerate creative destruction so dead capital is quickly redeployed to better ideas and companies, pour into it the most diverse, smart and energetic immigrants from every corner of the world and then stir and repeat, stir and repeat, stir and repeat, stir and repeat. - Shekhar Gupta
We are prodding, challenging, seeking contradictions or small, persistent residual errors, proposing alternative explanations, encouraging heresy. We give our highest rewards to those who convincingly disprove established beliefs. - Carl Sagan
We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins
120 million of us place the big bang 2,500 years after the Babylonians and Sumerians learned to brew beer. - Sam Harris
To kill a man is not to defend a doctrine, but to kill a man. - Michael Servetus, burned at the stake in 1553
Democracy is not about majority rule; it is about minority rights. If there is no culture of not simply tolerating minorities, but actually treating them with equal rights, real democracy can't take root. - Thomas L. Friedman
We cannot absolutely prove that those are in error who tell us that society has reached a turning point, that we have seen our best days. But so said all who came before us and with just as much apparent reason. - Thomas Macauley, 1830
It may be true that the law cannot make a man love me, but it can stop him from lynching me, and I think that's pretty important. - Martin Luther King, Jr.
We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men. - Edward R. Murrow
The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without evidence. Science is simply common sense at its best - that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic. - Thomas Huxley
There is no absurdity so obvious that it cannot be firmly planted in the human head if you only begin to impose it before the age of five, by constantly repeating it with an air of great solemnity. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. ... Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society. - President Thomas Jefferson
To be elected in America, no matter from what party, the candidates have no choice but to year after year pledge to lower taxes further and further. We have become the nation of Ken and Barbie, looking good but very poor at the math. - Rack Jite
Invisible Pink Unicorns are beings of great spiritual power. We know this because they are capable of being invisible and pink at the same time. Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorns is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that they are pink; we logically know that they are invisible because we can't see them. - Steve Eley
We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; we know now that it is bad economics. - President Franklin D. Roosevelt
I have been attacked by Rush Limbaugh on the air, an experience somewhat akin to being gummed by a newt. It doesn't actually hurt, but it leaves you with slimy stuff on your ankle. - Molly Ivins
In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican. - H. L. Mencken
Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts. - Winston Churchill
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2 comments:
Your definition of faith is one, and it is useful to support your argument. I prefer C.S. Lewis' from "mere Christianity."
"I am not asking anyone to accept Christianity if his best reasoning tells him that the weight of the evidence is against it. That is not the point at which Faith comes in. Faith, in the sense in which I am here using the word, is the art of holding on to things your reason has once accepted, in spite of your changing moods."
I would say that many evangelical christians are actually no longer Christian in their faith, they are caught up in emotion and excitement rather than faith. If they were faithful they would be more concerned with feeding and caring for the poor and creating peace in the world. They have lost their reason and are filled with greed and anger.
Well, Anonymous, C.S. Lewis was a great Christian apologist, but his definition of faith doesn't seem to be all that different from my own: belief without good evidence or despite the evidence.
When he says "holding on to things your reason has once accepted," he just means believing what you were taught as a child, doesn't he? But why would that be a good thing, when you've come to a better understanding of the world?
"Changing moods"? Is that how he'd describe giving up Santa Claus when you come to understand he doesn't actually exist?
Finally, "the weight of the evidence" is a much easier standard of proof than demonstrating the reality of your claims. Would he say the same thing about Islam, I wonder? Or Wicca? Still, if Christians actually have evidence, where is it?
After all, I'm just saying that it's a good thing to have evidence backing up your beliefs. Otherwise, it's far too easy to fool yourself, especially in those areas where you really, really want to be fooled.
Re. your last paragraph, whether someone is actually Christian or not, I generally take them at their word. They're Christian if they claim to be. There's certainly enough contradictions in the Bible to cover a wide variety of different beliefs.
Of course, right-wing evangelicals don't think that liberal Christians are really Christian, either. Well, I don't have a dog in that hunt, so I just accept whatever a person wants to label himself.
Thanks for the comment.
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