Well, all this is interesting to me, anyway, and that's what matters here. The Internet is a terrible thing for someone like me, who finds almost everything interesting.
Thursday, November 22, 2012
Richard Dawkins vs Howard Conder on morality
I wonder how many Christians even realize what a disgusting philosophy their religion is all about. I suspect that most just don't think about it.
But supposedly, Adam sinned, so all of his ancestors are considered guilty, too, automatically. This is blaming people for something they had absolutely no part of - indeed, couldn't have affected one way or another, since they hadn't even been born yet.
Because of this "original sin," human beings needed a scapegoat, literally (or nearly so), because God wouldn't forgive them without it - even though they hadn't done anything wrong, and even though he's omnipotent, so he could have forgiven them if he wanted to.
But as guilt magically descended on them, because of something a distant ancestor did, they would likewise magically transfer the guilt to something else, then kill it. Yes, this is all about magic, because that's how people thought in those days. And scapegoats were a common practice then.
Unfortunately, an ordinary, run-of-the-mill scapegoat wouldn't work, because Adam's guilt from eating that apple was too great. To forgive that would require a much bigger death. Even killing another human being wouldn't be enough magic. It required the death of a god to get enough magical power to convince 'God' to forgive human beings for something someone else did.
Weird, huh? But this is the whole point of Christianity. I'm not making this up, I'm really not. But I do wonder how many Christians actually understand this (just as I wonder how many Catholics understand that their communion wafer is literally supposed to turn into the actual flesh of Jesus, and that the wine is actually supposed to turn into his blood - not metaphorically, but really).
As Richard Dawkins noted, any omnipotent god could have just forgiven people (assuming that there was something to forgive, which there wasn't, since none of us are Adam and Eve). It was entirely his own choice to torture his son to death.
And note this comment from Howard Conder: "The ransom price had to be a perfect life." Yes, according to Christian doctrine, that's the whole point of Jesus dying on the cross. But it was God who was requiring the ransom, and it was entirely up to him. No one was holding a gun to his head.
Of course, this is magical-thinking, which was very, very common two thousand years ago. And it was also common to blame people for the actions of their parents, or even for the actions of their distant ancestors. Scapegoats - literal scapegoats - were also common.
But we don't do any of that these days. These days, we find that stuff primitive, immoral, and abhorrent. But it's the whole basis of Christianity, it really is.
And it always strikes me as funny when liberal believers - indeed, the vast majority of Christians these days - don't believe that Adam and Eve really existed. I mean, it's just a metaphor, right?
Well, that's wise of them,... but don't they realize that it also means there was absolutely no reason for Jesus Christ to die on the cross? Without "original sin," there was no need for Jesus to be killed as a scapegoat. Quite literally, he could not "die for our sins" if Adam and Even didn't actually exist to create that "original sin."
I mean, yes, it's absolutely crazy to believe, in the 21st Century, that they did exist, that all that Genesis stuff is literally true. But if you don't believe it, you have no basis for your Christian faith. If you don't believe it, Christ dying on the cross - God "sending his only son to die for us" - has no meaning at all.
Honestly, there's just nothing about this that makes any sense. I'm just astonished that people can still believe this stuff. Given all this, I'm astonished that they can still think their god is good. I'm astonished that the whole idea behind it - magical-thinking, scapegoating, guilt inherited from your parents, all of it - can get any adherence in the 21st Century.
But I suspect that Christians just don't think about it - and don't want to think about it. They want to believe pleasant things, so it doesn't pay to look at any of this too closely.
I'm a skeptic. I think it makes sense to have reasons for what I believe, so I apportion my belief to the evidence. You're welcome to disagree. Please, tell me I'm wrong. I probably don't agree with anyone about everything. Why should disagreement be a problem? Check the Pages section below for series posts and links to book reviews and game posts, as well as contact info. Unfortunately, I rarely blog at all, anymore. So don't expect new posts. - Bill
We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true. - Robert Wilensky
It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong - Richard Feynman
The general root of superstition is that men observe when things hit, and not when they miss, and commit to memory the one, and pass over the other. - Sir Francis Bacon
When a whole nation is roaring Patriotism at the top of its voice, I am fain to explore the cleanness of its hands and purity of its heart. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
Speculation is perfectly all right, but if you stay there you've only founded a superstition. If you test it, you've started a science. - Hal Clement
No matter how many times a theory meets its tests successfully, there can be no certainty that it will not be overthrown by the next observation. This, then, is a cornerstone of modern natural philosophy. It makes no claim of attaining ultimate truth. In fact, the phrase "ultimate truth" becomes meaningless, because there is no way in which enough observations can be made to make truth certain and, therefore, "ultimate". - Isaac Asimov
The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion. - Treaty of Tripoli, passed unanimously by the U.S. Senate and signed by President John Adams (1797)
I don't doubt the sincerity of dowsers, but even after we've demonstrated that they can't produce results that are any better than chance they'll still go away believing in their abilities... It is like the mother whose son is caught shoplifting on tape. She wonders why someone would want to frame her child by producing a fake video. - James Randi
During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. The Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church ... imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood. Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry. - Mark Twain
Aristotle maintained that women have fewer teeth than men; although he was twice married, it never occurred to him to verify this statement by examining his wives' mouths. - Bertrand Russell
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. - Friedrich Nietzsche
I have been thinking that I would make a proposition to my Republican friends... that if they will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them. - Adlai E. Stevenson, Jr.
This is not about proof. Science does not use proof. We favor evidence, and the work consists largely of the slow accumulation of evidence in support of ideas, not magically potent proofs that establish an idea as unassailable. - PZ Myers
No, people don't expect government to solve all their problems. But they sense, deep in their bones, that with just a slight change in priorities, we can make sure that every child in America has a decent shot at life, and that the doors of opportunity remain open to all. - President Barack Obama
The formula was very simple: build this really flexible, really open economy, tolerate creative destruction so dead capital is quickly redeployed to better ideas and companies, pour into it the most diverse, smart and energetic immigrants from every corner of the world and then stir and repeat, stir and repeat, stir and repeat, stir and repeat. - Shekhar Gupta
We are prodding, challenging, seeking contradictions or small, persistent residual errors, proposing alternative explanations, encouraging heresy. We give our highest rewards to those who convincingly disprove established beliefs. - Carl Sagan
We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins
120 million of us place the big bang 2,500 years after the Babylonians and Sumerians learned to brew beer. - Sam Harris
To kill a man is not to defend a doctrine, but to kill a man. - Michael Servetus, burned at the stake in 1553
Democracy is not about majority rule; it is about minority rights. If there is no culture of not simply tolerating minorities, but actually treating them with equal rights, real democracy can't take root. - Thomas L. Friedman
We cannot absolutely prove that those are in error who tell us that society has reached a turning point, that we have seen our best days. But so said all who came before us and with just as much apparent reason. - Thomas Macauley, 1830
It may be true that the law cannot make a man love me, but it can stop him from lynching me, and I think that's pretty important. - Martin Luther King, Jr.
We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men. - Edward R. Murrow
The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without evidence. Science is simply common sense at its best - that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic. - Thomas Huxley
There is no absurdity so obvious that it cannot be firmly planted in the human head if you only begin to impose it before the age of five, by constantly repeating it with an air of great solemnity. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. ... Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society. - President Thomas Jefferson
To be elected in America, no matter from what party, the candidates have no choice but to year after year pledge to lower taxes further and further. We have become the nation of Ken and Barbie, looking good but very poor at the math. - Rack Jite
Invisible Pink Unicorns are beings of great spiritual power. We know this because they are capable of being invisible and pink at the same time. Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorns is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that they are pink; we logically know that they are invisible because we can't see them. - Steve Eley
We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; we know now that it is bad economics. - President Franklin D. Roosevelt
I have been attacked by Rush Limbaugh on the air, an experience somewhat akin to being gummed by a newt. It doesn't actually hurt, but it leaves you with slimy stuff on your ankle. - Molly Ivins
In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican. - H. L. Mencken
Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts. - Winston Churchill
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